"some of the most vocal on the X-Man side are still either too scared, too hurt, or too disgusted with the debate to join"

OK, so I've been baited, but I couldn't resist the above (albeit yawningly predictable) snippet.

Which debate are you referring to?

I don't remember a great deal of debate over at MFI, or anywhere else for that matter. Endless and mind-numbingly repetitive pontificating to the tune of several trillion words per annum (on a severely restricted set of tropes, themes and pet gripes - something about stripes wasn’t it?), ... yes, unequivocally, no doubt at all, there was a lot of that.

Debate: to deliberate, to consider. Debatable: open to argument.

Debating: to engage in debate ... err, [racks brain, tries to find something charitable to say] ... there was that time, ... oh no, err ... that was someone else ... no, wait a minute, I remember now, there wasn’t any debate ... just more of the same.

Having said which it’s back to the crap-settling. Have fun

Endless and mind-numbingly repetitive pontificating

Now that I see those words in print I prefer them over "Free and Open Discourse" for the home page.

Welcome, djn. Good to see you here.

Debate: to deliberate, to consider. Debatable: open to argument.

M: An argument isn't just contradiction.
A: It can be.
M: No it can't. An argument is a connected series of statements intended to establish a proposition.
A: No it isn't.
M: Yes it is! It's not just contradiction.
A: Look, if I argue with you, I must take up a contrary position.
M: Yes, but that's not just saying 'No it isn't.'
A: Yes it is!
M: No it isn't! Argument is an intellectual process. Contradiction is just the automatic gainsaying of any statement the other person makes.
(short pause)
A: No it isn't.

I was speaking to an old MFI stalwart earlier this evening who was surprised that I'd bothered to post here. And I suppose my answer was that I was surprised too, and not a little irritated with myself.

Don't get me wrong, I'm happy that you've all have found a place to 'hang your hats' that is clearly much more suitable than MFI, but I didn’t come here to start replaying those games again – I have neither the enthusiasm nor the energy – mainly I think, because I saw those 'debates' (if you can call them that) as rather futile explorations of thalo's ego with little or nothing to do with the state of OS X, Apple, or anything else.

And again, don't get me wrong, I think thalo and the rest of you are entitled to your opinions. But what irritated me enough to post a message here was the typical thaloism I quoted in my previous message. And before anyone reminds me, I know that thalo is a self-confessed master baiter but, from where I'm stood, that simply means he grants himself immunity from any and all criticism. 'Yeah, I wound you up, but that was my intention, so it makes it all ok'.

The 'debates' here seem different from the many I witnessed at MFI (not surprisingly) but I witnessed too many repetitions on a theme at MFI where the master baiter (IMO) did little else but intentionally belittle those he engaged with in an attempt to score points. And no amount of 'woe is me, what have they done to my baby' justifies that – at least not for me. So I guess my appearance here is more to do with a lingering irritation than anything else.

It has always made me edgy when I run up against people whose convictions are so strong that any dissent is simply brushed aside as erroneous, or mistaken, or just plain stupid. And that's what I witnessed at MFI, and that's what the quote I used brought back for me. Many of the people who tried to talk to thalo at MFI seemed to have genuine and objective reasons to think that OS X was a good product and that it surpassed OS 9, and many of them made sincere and genuine attempts to talk to him and to explain why they thought that way. But the incessant 'crap-settling' comments, the never ending whinging about how he knew best, and the resolute and unshakeable faith he has in his own opinions - and to hell with anyone else - well it all got somewhat unpalatable. And I would suspect that the passage of time between then and now wouldn't make re-engaging with those debates any less nauseating or more meaningful.

To finish, I often thought that a reasonable proportion of thalo's comments had a grain of truth about them; i.e. yes, an OS can always be improved, and there are some reasonably obvious ways in which OS X can be improved. But, and clearly this is a matter of opinion, if I wanted to ensure that those changes had some chance of being implemented the absolute very last thing I would do is rally behind an obsessive, utterly intolerant and inflexible soap box orator.

So, as I said, have fun.

I hope you don't post and run, djn. I hope you mean to stick around. That last post shows that you really know how to "tell it like it is", Howard Cosell style.

Run? I feel no need to run. Sauntering in a jaunty fashion, now that's a possibility

I prefer to skip while whistling a merry little tune.

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To finish, I often thought that a reasonable proportion of thalo's comments had a grain of truth about them; i.e. yes, an OS can always be improved, and there are some reasonably obvious ways in which OS X can be improved. But, and clearly this is a matter of opinion, if I wanted to ensure that those changes had some chance of being implemented the absolute very last thing I would do is rally behind an obsessive, utterly intolerant and inflexible soap box orator.

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A couple things. First, deej, it's amazing to see you, my brother. I appreciate you joining. But unfortunately, sounds like it's a short visit. And I think I see why.

The thing that jumps right out at me is that "rallying fear." That's what I used to call the "fear of thalo's magic powers." As if somehow, by having strong opinions, that --and only that-- is going to stop people from being able to make up their own minds. About me, and about issues. Another one I see going on here has to do with my supposed self-granted "immunity from any and all criticism." That's always been frustrating to X-Men, I know. It's good that you confer with each other in matters of thalo. Perhaps y'all could try and form some kind of a support group For somebody immune to criticism, I certainly get an awful lot of it, don't you think? People on your side of the debate wig out over my choices of words WAY more than they do Apple's choice of philosophy or visual symbology. I'll respond the way I've always responded: I think in the realm of opinion, EVERYTHING is self-granted. Every word you read, and every word you write is a choice of YOURS. Not mine, yours.

Meanwhile, you are free to choose to raise the level of discourse or not. Just as I am. You are free to decide what, where, why, how, and when you'll post. The fact that you came here, posted, and decided to post mostly about me, is not my fault. Unless you are willing to admit that somehow I am able to get you to act against your will.

You say that it makes you "edgy" when you run up against people like me, with strong opinions. As if that in itself can "brush aside dissent." Well, sorry man, what I choose to brush aside or not has squat to do with your ability to dissent. That's just a lame excuse. That's trying to blame my convictions for your inability to express yours. As if I'm the only person here. Like some alpha-soapboxer, and nobody will hear your voice if I'm in the chorus. Bullshit. There are plenty of people who would listen to you, there are just no guarantees that everything you say will be seen as gospel. That's true for me, and true for you. And isn't that what you're really afraid of? Isn't that edginess really more about putting your views out on the line and NOT KNOWING whether they will be heard or dismissed as stupid, or taken to heart? Well, newsflash. That's why we're all here. I'll take an edgy site like this, any day, over a squelch-o-rama like MFI.

Meanwhile, once you know my game, it's really not that hard to tune out the stuff that's there to bait you. You can dismiss provocative rhetoric at will. You have the tools. You can decide for yourself which little phrases or jabs or feints are stupid, and ignore them. It works both ways. You don't have less power than me, to determine for yourself what the grains of truth are, and what's the nonsense. The fact that you've EVER seen ANY grains of truth in my posts, means you've been able to do this in the past. But you seem reluctant to take it to the next step. To take one of those grains, and nurture it into a discussion of your own. You choose to be reactive rather than analytical. Your choice. I work on many levels, and I'm just as comfortable with cogent debate, as I am with raucous de bait. And guess what? You don't have to deal with any of it. You can come here to talk about what you want to talk about, and with whom you want to talk about it, and we never have to cross paths.

You can do the thalo two-step, the X-man scrollpast. You can ignore me partially, completely, whatever. I'll exist either way. You can brush me off and dismiss me, the same way you say I dismiss you. In fact, you and your MFI buddies are obviously discussing the best ways to dismiss me, why you should or shouldn't post here... but it's mostly behind my back. You have plenty of enthusiasm and energy for that. But you're usually afraid to take it into the public forum. To find the grains of truth about why you let simple teasing and humor derail and obsess you.

And through all of it, I always tell you why I "belittle"--because I feel Apple is belittling us. I think they make distinctions about the user base that are equally as downtalking as any I can come up with. Trouble is, mine are for laughs; and to make a point. Apple's are there for other reasons. You can escape mine. Once you see what I'm up to, YOU are immune, unless you CHOOSE to continually take them personally. With Apple, once we see what they're up to, we're aware of the con, and we can work toward changing the situation.

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...the thalo two-step, the X-man scrollpast.

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Oops! Missed that the first time through.

LOL brother 95!

I think one of these days I'll have to change your status to "Laugh Riot" instead of "DigiGeek"

djn1, What a pile of bull crap! If you want to debate then debate. No no one is stopping you. They way I read your post, you believe that its only a debate if one side changes its position and agrees with the other. Gee whiz, I wonder which side is the one you think should change? Let me guess: You believe X-Critics should stop criticizing and get on board. Is that pretty much it? To you that is a debate, right?

Do you think thalo's mission of prodding Apple to change its mind and focus on "Pro" users is useless? I do. I debated this with him at MFI. He's a stubborn SOB. He didn't see things my way and I didn't see things his. I don't remember either of us claiming it wasn't a debate unless one us prevailed. As I remember the exchanges, both of us were praised by X-Men and X-Critics alike for the interesting points we raised.

You have something to say? Say it! You can even talk about the state of the debate if that what moves you. Do you have anything interesting to say about the debate other than the dim-witted ridicule you posted? Should there even be a debate? Why? Why not? What do you think about thalo's idea that somehow Apple isn't entirely aware that it is alienating a certain group users? That somehow they didn't give this move careful thought in advanced and all that is needed is for him to remind them and they will reverse themselves and focus on the users he thinks they should? Do you have any thoughts about this?

Here, let me get you started:

Hey thalo, Wake up and smell the coffee! What does it take to get your attention! You've just been effectively bounced from a long-time Mac site by a BeOS guy! Don't you get it? Users like you is not where Apple is going. It is deliberately going after a consumer market and whatever portion of its former base it alienates is regrettable, but hey, that's business. Apple is going after a larger market and is making certain decisions to carry out its decision. Thalo, you're pissing in the wind, brother. Being bounced from a long-time Mac site by a BeOS guy tells you nothing? No clue? Nothing at all? This BeOS guy is now what is a Macintosh user is, and you are not.

Okay djn1, I got it started. Take it from here. Don't like that start? Well, start one yourself. Or is hit and run dim-witted ridicule your whole act? You really don't have anything interesting to say---is that it?

HH, I don’t know whether you or thalo or right or not, but I see DJN’s post being about one of three things:

1) Being able to go back to your buddies and say “See how I put them bullies in their place?” It’s kind of like putting a thumbtack on the bully’s chair and getting the admiration of your fellow nerds.

2) By being a little provocative, and when the usual replies come, being able to say “Aha! Nothing has changed. I still don’t need to listen to you guys” which helps to reinforce current beliefs about OS X.

3) A true desire to speak one’s mind apart from the usual suffocating Mac zealotry and doing it under the guise of one of the above.

Either way, djn has proved he isn't a chicken shit and is able to speak his mind. I like that. He's thalo.net material whether he wishes to stick around or not.

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Hey thalo, Wake up and smell the coffee! What does it take to get your attention! You've just been effectively bounced from a long-time Mac site by a BeOS guy! Don't you get it? Users like you is not where Apple is going. It is deliberately going after a consumer market and whatever portion of its former base it alienates is regrettable, but hey, that's business. Apple is going after a larger market and is making certain decisions to carry out its decision. Thalo, you're pissing in the wind, brother. Being bounced from a long-time Mac site by a BeOS guy tells you nothing? No clue? Nothing at all? This BeOS guy is now what is a Macintosh user is, and you are not.

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Yeah, really, was that so hard?

And you know what? I HEAR that. That's a compelling point that both scares me, makes me question myself, but in the end galvanizes me. I may be pissing in the wind, but I'm doing it because I believe it's the RIGHT thing to do. I think this fight is worth fighting, and is much bigger than just "business." You had people in the revolution going "what, are you friggin' NUTS? It's the british. freakin'. empire!" Talk about pissing in the wind. But there was a right and a wrong. There was a component to the struggle that transcended simple economics and ended up being about more. There were petty squabbles, but there were some big honkin' serious issues to sink your teeth into. About freedom and liberty and good government vs. advantage-taking. Enlightenment and consolidation of grander ideas vs. bureaucratic bloat and taking the easy way out.

The "Less is More" thing is way bigger than me. Bloat and dumbing down, trivializing and visual superabundance are cultural problems. We see them in cable news, children's programming, advertising, art, architecture, film, video, and theater. The Mac could be one solution to rampant bloat. It could be a pioneer again, instead of a milktoast trend follower. A grand healing and elevating force. The Mac still has it in it to change the world as we know it.

The only thing you've got dead wrong brother HH, is that I was never bounced. Ask Kurt. I chose to leave after he took a stand on me. He gave me one strike (clearly for my views); and I told him to shove the other two. Hard as it may be for X-Men to believe, I've never been honest-to-god banned anywhere.

The "Less is More" thing is way bigger than me. Bloat and dumbing down, trivializing and visual superabundance are cultural problems. We see them in cable news, children's programming, advertising, art, architecture, film, video, and theater.

I don't know if you have noticed, but FOX has been testing out the no-on-screen-graphics old school approach during the middle innings of some of its baseball broadcasts. At first, I was excited with the idea that I would get to see my entire screen filled with only the action. Within one inning however, I wanted the stats box back, I couldn't stand having to listen to the announcers in the hope that I would catch the score and the count. Exactly how I feel when I have to go into OS9 to do some things. I find myself longing for the dock and column view and other goodies I use in OSX. That said, I wish the FOX box was smaller and more intuitive, like that of ESPN, but I would like a version of it there just the same. So it goes for OSX. I like all the additions and tweaks, but they could stand some refining to appease the GUIfters. Of course, some may never be satisfied due to OSX's heritage. That is not a failing to me. Code is code, and having UNIX underneath is an advantage whether one taps into it or not.

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A couple things. First, deej, it's amazing to see you, my brother. I appreciate you joining. But unfortunately, sounds like it's a short visit.

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Maybe.

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And I think I see why.

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No, I don't think you do. It struck me that what I posted was fairly self-evident - clearly it wasn't, either that or your response is a deliberate misreading. Either way ...

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The thing that jumps right out at me is that "rallying fear." That's what I used to call the "fear of thalo's magic powers." As if somehow, by having strong opinions, that --and only that-- is going to stop people from being able to make up their own minds.

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I guess this ties into what I was trying to say. First off though, I didn't say anything about a "rallying fear" nor do I have such a fear. If you all want to hang around berating the state of the world that's up to you. It's of no concern to me and I really don't think another couple of million words condemning the OS X GUI is of any great significance in the scale of things. As I said, the reason I stopped by was more to do with residual frustration than anything else. But I'm not frustrated about what you said (or say), rather it's the way you say it and the various assumptions that underpin its saying. It's this whole 'crap-settling' thing. Personally, I find it irritating. Let's get one thing straight, and I said this to you time and time again at MFI, I do agree with a lot of the points you make. The Finder could do with being more responsive, the GUI does chew it's way through more resources than it should, and so on and so on. I, like you, would like a more responsive OS. I don't agree the GUI is eye-candy and I don't find it distracting nor that it impedes my work flow. Fair enough that you do.

But, and this is really the only point I was trying to make in my previous post, the way you go about your crusade really gets my back up (is that an expression you use in the States?). I don't give a rat's ass if you think that I don't know my own mind. I've been using OS X for almost a year and a half and i) think it's the best OS currently available that meets my needs, and ii) as I said to you countless times at MFI - I am able to be more productive when using it than I ever was in OS 9. To me, that isn't 'crap settling', nor is it a misinformed response (I've put in around 1500 hours on this machine), I do have experience of other OS's and have found them wanting ... need I go on? What gets me is that you complain about being squelched at MFI (which, much as I found your posts irritating I thought was unwarranted) but you weren't squelched for what you were saying, but for how you were saying it. In your other post you said "Ask Kurt. I chose to leave after he took a stand on me. He gave me one strike (clearly for my views)". Do you honestly believe that? I don't.

The trouble, as I see it, is that your constant implication that your peers were all akin to retarded dullards who wouldn't know a good OS if it jumped up and bit them just annoyed too many people. You have your opininion, I have mine, and other people have theirs. And, as far as I'm concerned, we're all (more or less) possessed of the faculties to make those decisions for ourselves. I don't need you to stick your beliefs down my throat because i) I have my own that I'm quite attached to, and ii) all that you acheive (as far as I can see) is that you offend those who quite openly agreed with many of the points you raised.

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It's good that you confer with each other in matters of thalo. Perhaps y'all could try and form some kind of a support group For somebody immune to criticism, I certainly get an awful lot of it, don't you think?

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To be honest thalo there hasn't been all that much discussion. I don't hang around at MFI anymore but there certainly hasn't been much said at OSXHints.

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People on your side of the debate wig out over my choices of words

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See above.

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Meanwhile, you are free to choose to raise the level of discourse or not. Just as I am. You are free to decide what, where, why, how, and when you'll post. The fact that you came here, posted, and decided to post mostly about me, is not my fault. Unless you are willing to admit that somehow I am able to get you to act against your will.

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No, as I said, it was more to do with residual frustration than anything else.

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You say that it makes you "edgy" when you run up against people like me, with strong opinions.

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Only insofar as you appear, on occasions, to be totally inflexible. It's like the difference between meeting someone who likes dressing up as Napoleon and meeting someone who believes he is Napoleon. The former I can tolerate, the latter make me edgy.

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That's why we're all here. I'll take an edgy site like this, any day, over a squelch-o-rama like MFI.

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No argument from me.

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Meanwhile, once you know my game, it's really not that hard to tune out the stuff that's there to bait you. You can dismiss provocative rhetoric at will. You have the tools. You can decide for yourself which little phrases or jabs or feints are stupid, and ignore them. It works both ways. You don't have less power than me, to determine for yourself what the grains of truth are, and what's the nonsense.

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Yeah, maybe, but you sure don't do yourself any favours.

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In fact, you and your MFI buddies are obviously discussing the best ways to dismiss me, why you should or shouldn't post here... but it's mostly behind my back. You have plenty of enthusiasm and energy for that. But you're usually afraid to take it into the public forum.

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No, sorry to disappoint. As I said, someone contacted me after I posted. I didn't discuss it beforehand.

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And through all of it, I always tell you why I "belittle"--because I feel Apple is belittling us. I think they make distinctions about the user base that are equally as downtalking as any I can come up with. Trouble is, mine are for laughs; and to make a point. Apple's are there for other reasons. You can escape mine. Once you see what I'm up to, YOU are immune, unless you CHOOSE to continually take them personally. With Apple, once we see what they're up to, we're aware of the con, and we can work toward changing the situation.

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As I've always said, some of your points are eminently reasonable and, if it weren't for the incessant crap-settling chants and total word count overkill, I think I'd be inclined to agree with some of them. As I said, my post wasn't about how you feel about OS X, nor whether you were right or wrong. It was about style not content.

HighHopes, ... chill out, you're getting a little too rattled You said "You have something to say? Say it! You can even talk about the state of the debate if that what moves you. Do you have anything interesting to say about the debate other than the dim-witted ridicule you posted?". I did say it, and now I've said it again. My apologies if you took offence on thalo's behalf. Me, I have feelings and would have found it upsetting if I'd been on the receiving end. But I took thalo at his word, that he takes none of this personally. Did you forget that?

Brad, thanks. The answer is a variant of your third option; i.e. a desire to speak my mind. Isn't that the point of this forum?

Finally (thalo), in response to your other post ... I do think you're pissing in the wind but I admire you for taking a stand. Just don't trample my opinion underfoot to do so. I don't honestly think there's much point in trying to debate the merits of OS X with you, because we're clearly poles apart on this one. But, hey, just for once it would be good to hear you say that you accept that other people are mostly happy with it and that it enhances their lives, workflow, productivity ... whatever.

The pulsating Dock is the equivalent of the on-screen crawl that is now cluttering and polluting our TV screens. It's too busy and annoying and low-class. Just another example of the deterioration of the general quality of life. Remember when Apple stood for elegance and style, and Jobs ragged on Bill Gates for having "no taste?"

Markle

Within one inning however, I wanted the stats box back

As you said, Darr, some stat boxes are better than others. I suppose we can try to blow this into a grander issue: If you like stat boxes you are a mindless Digikid. If you want no graphics at all then you are a proper less-is-more purist.

I find that less-is-more = a small, easy-to-read stat box. I like them and ain’t no one gonna change my mind. However, someone might indeed suggest a better way to do them. They might even suggest that TV will advance to the stage where you can turn that kind of stuff on or off as you see fit. Heck, I can even imagine having a second TV monitor just off to the side that was filled with nothing but stats of all the games in progress if that's what I wanted, leaving the main screen crystal clear. I can imagine being able to call up the stats of the pitcher who is warming up in the bullpen on this second screen as desired. I'd love that.

I understand that techniques such as shrinking the screen down to 3/4 size so that they can give us some kind of Budweiser update to the side is simply a way to sneak in some advertising without going to commercial. But I think the big problem with ever-expanding TV graphics relates to the less-is-more problem. People think that because we like a little of it that we will like a lot of it. The appreciation for just a DAB of graphics for vital informational content is lost. I think you get a bunch of yahoos who think “Hey…I see ESPN has those graphics thingies on the screen. Hell, we can do MORE of them and be even better.”

There needs to be some kind of thoughtful restraint brought to all this or you just get trash.

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Only insofar as you appear, on occasions, to be totally inflexible. It's like the difference between meeting someone who likes dressing up as Napoleon and meeting someone who believes he is Napoleon

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Again, deej, I have to remind you that I've never claimed to be anything but a charlatan and provocateur. I not only tell you that I'm dressed up as thalo, I tell you why.

Meanwhile, ya think that maybe--just maybe--the operative phrase above is "on occasion"? I think we are ALL "on occasion" inflexible. We all have opinions that we apparently won't budge on. I'm just up front with mine. Welcome to life. Intractability does not disqualify anyone from discourse. Firmly held opinions have NOTHING to do with trampling other opinions underfoot. That's an emotional reaction based on a perception you have created for yourself, and are then choosing to blame me for. Even after I show and tell you what I'm up to. I'd argue that there's no possible way I can do anything to "trample your opinions underfoot" and have that mean anything but perhaps disagreeing with them in my own unique way. YOU assign "trample" YOU envision the foot... YOU decide how seriously you're going to take that... YOU decide how badly your feelings will be hurt if I disagree. None of it can STOP you from speaking your mind unless you choose to let it. I don't have magic powers, and I'm tired of people trying to give them to me.

If you can't debate the merits of OS X with people you disagree with, again, whose problem is that? I think you might want to re-examine why you're hanging your trip on me.

Knowing you won't change my mind, and making THAT the reason you bail on dialog shows that, for you, it's more about convincing ME than it is expressing yourself. It shows me, that somehow locked up in the reason you post, is a personal validation of your ideas from people who don't buy what you're saying. I'm different. I don't need validation. I like hearing people who disagree. I think the process of working this all out is more valuable than individual boo boo feelings.

I hear more or less this kind of thing, all the friggin' time: "if only thalo would say those things in such-and-such a way, I might be inclined to agree with him." You show me RIGHT THERE that you are responding more to the rhetorical trappings, than the ideas buried therein. Style not content is at the crux of this debate. Overkill and downtalking are features that I became thalo to illustrate.

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But, hey, just for once it would be good to hear you say that you accept that other people are mostly happy with it and that it enhances their lives, workflow, productivity ... whatever.

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I accept that some people BELIEVE they are mostly happy with it, that it enhances their lives, workflow, productivity, whatever. But I also believe in the limitless capacity of human beings to delude themselves. To WANT to believe things, in the face of all evidence to the contrary. And I accept that some people look at OS X as an emotional issue, like being a fan of a baseball team, and like it because it's the home team... rather than carefully analyzing its performance to see if it's deserving of winning the game.

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Firmly held opinions have NOTHING to do with trampling other opinions underfoot

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and . . .

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I accept that some people BELIEVE they are mostly happy with it, that it enhances their lives, workflow, productivity, whatever. But I also believe in the limitless capacity of human beings to delude themselves. To WANT to believe things, in the face of all evidence to the contrary. And I accept that some people look at OS X as an emotional issue, like being a fan of a baseball team, and like it because it's the home team... rather than carefully analyzing its performance to see if it's deserving of winning the game

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And that’s why there’s no point in hanging around here attempting any form of debate, with you, or with any of the other enlightened messianists; because your entire argument hangs or falls by your spurious assumption that you have some privileged access to reality that the rest of us are too stupid or ‘emotional’ to comprehend. YOU, and YOU alone, can recognise the ‘evidence’, YOU understand human nature better than the rest of us, YOU decide what counts as ‘carefully analyzing performance’.

So, before I go, that’s precisely the attitude that I found offensive at MFI, your unflagging faith in i) the merit of your own arguments, and ii) your mostly implicit assumption as to the fallibility of your fellow human beings.

I know that OS X enhances my life, workflow and productivity and I also know that such a claim can be validated against public criteria that a good number of people would accept as empirically and epistemologically valid. You, on the other hand, dismiss all such claims on the grounds that anyone who likes, supports, or otherwise condones OS X is delusional. Hmmm, there’s something wrong with that picture thalo.

As far as I know you might be one of the best designers on the planet (I haven’t seen your work), you might be spot on in the majority of your criticisms of OS X (as I said, I would agree with a lot of them), but your grasp of psychology (or whatever disciplinary framework you draw on to warrant your claims regarding human beings' limitless capacity of to delude themselves), is, to put it politely, nothing more than naïve and megalomaniacal crap.

As I said, I suspected that this would be a short visit

As I said, I suspected that this would be a short visit

Just as I suspected---a drive-by posting.

A johnny-one-note with nothing interesting to say.


.....because your entire argument hangs or falls by your spurious assumption that you have some privileged access to reality that the rest of us are too stupid or ‘emotional’ to comprehend. YOU, and YOU alone, can recognise the ‘evidence’, YOU understand human nature better than the rest of us, YOU decide what counts as ‘carefully analyzing performance’.


I never heard thalo or anyone else saying any of those things. Not one. I get it. You are a mind reader and not only can you read what people are thinking, but you can mind read the assumptions behind those thoughts. No wonder that you don't need to post---you can carry the entire discussion by yourself using mind beams alone! The Amazing djn1! How does he do it?

So, you have to boogy, huh? Gee whiz, and you had so much to add to the discussion. I'm ever so glad that you "know that OS X enhances my life..." because, after all, isn't that what we all want? An enhanced life? Apple's selling that, huh? Well, that's just great! Super!

I wish you and your enhanced life well. It's been short, but it's been forgettable.

So what's the deal, HH? This is starting to read like thalo is the loan shark and you're the bag man. Thalo gives soapbox time to people who can't find it elsewhere, and if they don't pay for it by immediately getting into the spirit of the thalo.net give-and-take, HighHopes comes around and busts their chops.

The net effect would be easy to mistake for a "get the hell out, we didn't want you here anyway" message. Oh, sure, the more doggedly self-assured among us will shake off your chastisement and keep right on posting, but not everybody gets it as quickly as some.

I was probably lucky to start posting here when there were only 4 or 5 registered members; although Brad and thalo challenged virtually everything I had to say, the novelty of having someone other than each other to reply to, I think, kept their replies a little less impatient in tone than what you've directed to djn1 and NINEKILLER in recent days.

Or maybe you just have less patience in general for those who repeat the objections you've heard over and over again from the X-critic critics.

If that's the case, well, it shouldn't be too surprising that the same kind of impatience is at work on the other side of the issue.